» ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS, Why I do not like the thought of it

[Detmurds]

Why does this administration what electronic medical records in hand with Obama-care?

My thoughts are this;

Having a data base via computer, the government will be able to monitor and make decisions in deciding to give, or not to give health care to the ill. Death panels will be conducted and the patient will not be in attendance. This is another attempt to make big brother more of a reality while giving government more control over people. This is not about a doctor's decision, nor is it about health, or care!

[Crusader]

Det you got it, it is about control. Control of business, control of banking, control of the populace, control of all we are endowed by our Creator life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Some in this country, not in control, are longing for such measures. Sad.

[Montrovant]

Obama-Hitler's death panels are coming! Flee!

[Crusader]

No, they dropped that out of the deathcare, I mean healthcare bill. Remember?
The part that wasn't there. The part that the promoters and Obama said didn't exist. The same people, Pelosi, that said the American people against healthcare are wearing swastikas to the meetings. That's a little funny since Obama's style of governance(?) leans facist. You know the guys in the National Socialist Party that started that little suarez called World War II.

Monty, in all seriousness, you don't see, even remotely any of this? Is your intellect denying what you see, as it can't be happening, thinking we're too smart for that? Does anything Obama has done and hasn't done raise any questions?

[Montrovant]

Do things Obama's administration has done or proposed raise questions? Absolutely. Do I find it hard to take seriously things that come from those who consider Obama a non-citizen, socialist, fascist, communist, reincarnation of Hitler who's single-handedly taking over the United States? Absolutely.

Do you not see how this site is degenerating into conspiracy theory silliness? How every new piece of news about Obama is proof of his evil scheme to take over the world? Most of the time I'm not arguing for Obama, I'm arguing against the crazy extreme ideas floating around this board. People here give him way too much credit as the evil genius mastermind of world domination and terror.

[Crusader]

I'm not saying Obama is Hitler reincarnate, however the way he is handling the economy, government oversight of banks, automobile industry, goverment spending through the roof causing added debt, and this scheme along with the democratic party leaders to change our healthcare system does parallel pre war Germany in some ways.

I believe from his upbringing and associations he view of America is vastly different from the majority. He gives the impression big goverment is the answer.
He denies he wants to run the car industry and bankiing yet dictates behind closed doors who stays and who goes. He manipulated the bankruptcy laws for the auto industry to fit what he wanted to do.

Look at the people he gets DIRECT advice from, all the czars he appointed. Avowed communists, terrorists, many from the far left fringe. These people don't make an impression on him? He's asking them for advice.

His thinking is out of phase with our Constitution, and he wants to change America to what he believes it should be. If this isn't true why is he preparing to ram a healthcare bill the majority do not want down our collective throats?

Again, did you listen to President Reagan on Socialism from 1961 on youtube?
I reiterate it is evern more pointed an on target today. That's my response to Obama and what is happening in America.

[Montrovant]

Well, if you could make up your mind as to what Obama is, perhaps it would be easier to discuss. One day he's a socialist, the next he's a communist, then he's a fascist, then he's Hitler, then back to a socialist again.

Your comparisons of Obama to Hitler certainly give the impression you think they are very similar. If that's not the case, you are doing a poor job conveying your intent.

You talk about Obama doing so much behind closed doors, if you know about it, does that mean the doors weren't closed all the way?

Which of the czars is a terrorist?

Obama is going to ram this health care bill down our throats....is he bypassing congress? Maybe there's some blame to be spread around. At least blaming Dems allows that there is more than a singular man controlling the course of our government. And if it were really being rammed down our throats, why was that controversial section that supposedly created a death panel removed?

Obama is a politician, so I automatically view him with distrust. I don't believe he's simply a public servant out to do what's best for the country, any more than I believe that about any of our elected officials. He obviously has a desire for power and prestige (I think that's a requirement to become president). His administration seems to be spending more money than makes sense. He may well end up the worst president in my lifetime. However, many of the posts on this board portray him as in line with Ahmadinejad, or Kim Jong Il, as some despotic tyrant wielding his massive personal power to control all aspects of the country (ok, the Ahmadinejad comparison is off, it would really be the ayhatolla I guess, but you get the point). I find it hard to take people seriously when they apparently want me to believe that I'm suddenly in the middle of a dictatorship.

[Detmurds]

He is all of the above Montrovant. And keep in mind that I do not say this in a way to call you out,..it is about Obama, not you. You are ok with me!

[Crusader]

Obama believes in redistribution of wealth which is socialism. He acts in a facist way with the automobile and banking industries. He attempts to make us all equal in the takeover of healthcare from the private sector to government run. He is a chameleon when it comes to his politics. The one thing for sure, it is not a belief of self determinaton or freedom for the citizenry. Our rights given to us by our Creator, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are slowly being taken away.

The czar that is a terrorist was in the Weather Underground with Bill Ayers, I think it is Van Jones. He is an avowed communist,

Under what President would a Khaddafi be welcome in the US?

Now I hear Obama is continuing to make the CIA impotent. Our troops in the field reading Miranda Rights to the enemy, and following UN directives to release captured enemies unless charged within 96 hours in remote parts of Afghanistan where it is logistically difficult to get in and out of even with helicopter. Our troops forced to free the enemy to fight again. Where is the Commander in Chiefs head?

I stand with President Reagan and his words from 1961. Can anyone refute what he said? Was he right 47 years ago? It's a prophetic warning. Did you listen to what Reagan had to say? I don't believe you have, because the silence is deafening,

Monty, I hope I am wrong, because if I am right it will be worse.

We were warned by our forefathers.....

[MAKEMDEAD]

I wish I could make an appointment, go to an office that has one doctor in it, and pay for my own health care. Too many hoops and hurdles to go through in today's world of medicine.

Electronic records? Will anyone ever be allowed to see it besides the government?

Reagan was great, I heard that audio yesterday

[Montrovant]

You give a lot of 'I hear this' and talk about things he's done without any actual facts being provided. Is Obama redistributing our wealth in ways completely different than any other president has done? Details please? How was the auto bailout (which, if I remember correctly, didn't even start with Obama) fascist? The health care bill is going to take away health care from the private sector, is it? I've certainly not seen evidence this is true, and it's been argued that that's a fabrication, so I'd like to see how that is happening.

What rights have you lost, and how did Obama take them away?

I think that Van Jones was supposed to have worked with a terrorist, not having been a terrorist himself. Even then I've only been able to find a WND report that Jeff Jones was a founder of the weather underground and that Van Jones worked with him. It may well be true, I just haven't been able to find a lot of info on it right now.

I believe I've already said that I find it odd to have Kadafi come here because he's always been portrayed as such an evil leader (and his name has so many different spellings! ). But to put things in a little perspective, didn't we support the Taliban during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? I'm not trying to say Kadafi coming here is ok, just that many presidents have made foolish decisions about what groups or leaders to tolerate or support. I'd rather Obama didn't tolerate this one.

Det, are you saying Obama IS a dictator and in control of the country?

[Crusader]

Redistribution of wealth is out of Obama's own mouth. The government bailout of the auto industry was not facist, having controling interest and dictating to the companies who will run the company, how it will be run, and influencing the type of vehicle is facist. It is the government dictating to industry. One other thing manupulating the bankruptcy laws and dictating who gets what money, the Unions get a cut before the creditors(?) and stockholders. That's not how bankruptcy works. My argument against universal healthcare, I am being redundant, is Ronald Reagan's response from 1961, again it is on youtube - Reagan on Socialism. For some reason it appears you avoid this?

Losing our rights may not have started with Obama, but you don't believe indebtedness and debt doesn't take away some freedom, as in the power to buy necessities? The government giving cash for cars manipulating the economy manufacturing a temporary upswing in the industry, with more foreign autos being sold creating profits for foreign business - go figure - as a side note, guiding consumers where to spend their money-in a sense. Another such cash for refrigerators is planned for the fall. Some states such as Texas, Tennessee, and Alaska have all passed legistlation asseting there soveriegnty as states under the 10th ammendment. Why do such a thing if the Fed wasn't incrementally usurping powers reserved for the states?

You tend to give the characters surrounding Obama the benefit of the doubt even though they have shaded pasts and disdain for this country. Ironic to make policy makers for this country using such neerdowells?

It seems Obama tolerates most rogue leaders. He is negotiating with N. Korea as agreed to N. Korea freeing those women a few weeks back. He sits at the table with a Chavez, and wants to speak with Ahmidominjehad.

Why are we affording an enemy we are fighting on foreign soil all the rights afforded an American citizen. These people need to be tried in military court not a civilian court of the US.

[Montrovant]

I agree, non-citizens should not be afforded exactly the same rights as citizens. I'm completely on board with you there.

Disagreeing with Obama's attempts at diplomacy with some of the leaders he does is fine; assuming that diplomacy means friendliness and a commonality of beliefs is not. Which is not to say Obama does not have any commonality of belief with some of these leaders, only that assuming such because he believes diplomacy with those nations is possible is a leap.

In the same breath that you deride government guiding where consumers spend their money, you complain that with cash for clunkers that money is going to foreign manufacturers. So they should guide consumers to American manufacturers, but they shouldn't guide consumers choices? And again, I have no problem with your being against the cash for clunkers program, it's when you do something like use it to compare Obama to Hitler I get upset.

The states asserting their sovereign status is, IMO, little more than a ploy for political points. Of course I think most of what Obama has done or is trying to do is the same.

I didn't ask whether or not Obama was attempting to redistribute wealth, rather if he's trying to do it in a way very different from other administrations before.

I don't know how much control the government has over what GM and Chrysler do. Is it fascism? I don't think so, I think that's a term that's tossed around too lightly and has lost much of it's meaning, but I'll go ahead and concede it may fit a loose interpretation. Should I extrapolate from that, as you have seemed to, that we are now living in a socialist, communist, fascist state? Note that there is a huge difference between being against such a policy and deciding that such a policy existing means our entire country is living under the yoke of tyranny.

I am not a proponent of universal healthcare either. However, the argument from those who have written and are supporting the health care bill is that it is not about universal health care. Rather, it is supposed to be a government insurance option in addition to private insurance options. Now, if you are opposed to that, fine. But you are not saying you oppose it, you say it means something else. Can you show how that is so? With evidence, rather than simple declarative statements that it is? I believe such a thing could be hidden in the legalese of the massive bill, but I'm not willing to just take your word it is so, especially in light of the many other leaps you are willing to make regarding what this administration is doing.

And there is the crux of my unhappiness with many of the things being tossed around the board of late. I feel the need for evidence of every statement, no matter how reasonable it might sound on it's face, because people here have shown such a willingness to make unreasonable statements and connections. Everyone is unreasonable at times, I by no means expect perfection from this board's posters (I know I can't live up to that kind of standard!), but lately it's one poster followed by another agreeing with the claims of socialism, then communism, then fascism, then Hitler comparisons.

[Crusader]

I deride the government for being in the car business using American taxpayers money as incentive to buy a new car. The deal went a bit awry when 4 out of 5 of the top sellers are foriegn cars with profits going overseas. The point is it is no differnet that a dealership giving a rebate. The gov is selling cars.

Universal healthcare and socialism...President Reagan response from 1961.

All most on this board have done have pointed out parallels with Nazi Germany.
Not that he is Hitler or we are becoming Nazi's, but that some of his policies are taken from the worst of governments around the world - socialist, communist, facist et al.

How do you govern a Democratic Republic with antithetical ideas from other governments? It is not practical or logical. We have our blueprint called the Constitution.

[Montrovant]

Do I need to go find quotes about how we are now a socialist country, or that we are in the middle of a communist uprising, or how about the recent Obama is worse than Hitler?

Crusader, I believe that you get caught up in how angered you are by the current administration (a completely valid feeling, you have plenty of reasons for it!) and let it push your comments a bit past reasonable at times. As you have shown in the back-and-forth we've had going for the past few days, when asked you can provide many examples of things you consider wrong about the president, his administration, congress, and the state of politics in general. While I may argue with you about some of them, even get angry if I think you are being wrong-headed (as I imagine we all do when reading someone else's opinions sometimes), I can mostly follow your reasoning and respect it. It's when I can't see how the connections or conclusions could be reasonably made that I get bent out of shape. That may be my issue as much as anyone else's, but really, why try and find parallels to Hitler unless you want to portray someone as being an evil tyrant like him?

I appreciate your willingness to explain in depth some of these positions or connections I've questioned, and while I still consider things such as the Hitler comparisons to be beyond foolish, most of the points you have raised I either agree with you to some extent, or at least feel you make reasonable arguments.