Touchy subject, but had to do it!
What is the dif between an abortion and Capital punishment?
Full Version: ABORTION AND CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
I'm against both.
In terms of abortion, I find it disgusting. I would never advise any woman to have one. However, I don't feel I have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body... Only the individual woman can know how the child was conceived... Perhaps she was raped, perhaps it was incest, etc... My point is, only the woman can know these things, so it should be her choice. I don't want the government in a woman's uterus.
Capital punishment is also disgusting. We put innocent people to death EVERY YEAR in this country. One innocent person put to death is too many... We still have a racist criminal just system that punishes black man with harsher penalties for equal crimes. We have prosecuters are pressured to get convctions, instead of making sure they get the right person.
I suggest that everyone rent a movie called The Trials of Daryl Hunt.
It is about a black man who spent over 20 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Had he been sentenced to death, he would have been murdered for no reason...
As long as this stuff continues to happen, I can not support the death penalty...
Likewise, study after study have shown that the death penalty is not a deterent to crime. People who are going to rape and murder are going to do it no matter what the consequence...
In terms of abortion, I find it disgusting. I would never advise any woman to have one. However, I don't feel I have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body... Only the individual woman can know how the child was conceived... Perhaps she was raped, perhaps it was incest, etc... My point is, only the woman can know these things, so it should be her choice. I don't want the government in a woman's uterus.
Capital punishment is also disgusting. We put innocent people to death EVERY YEAR in this country. One innocent person put to death is too many... We still have a racist criminal just system that punishes black man with harsher penalties for equal crimes. We have prosecuters are pressured to get convctions, instead of making sure they get the right person.
I suggest that everyone rent a movie called The Trials of Daryl Hunt.
It is about a black man who spent over 20 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Had he been sentenced to death, he would have been murdered for no reason...
As long as this stuff continues to happen, I can not support the death penalty...
Likewise, study after study have shown that the death penalty is not a deterent to crime. People who are going to rape and murder are going to do it no matter what the consequence...
CK went and turned his response into a rant again! 
To answer the question, there are quite a few differences between abortion and capital punishment, but the most important distinction for the argument I think this brings up is that an aborted fetus has not yet developed self-awareness (or should not have, I don't want to get into things like late-term abortions in this response).
Capital punishment is just that, punishment. I doubt many abortions are the result of someone trying to punish the fetus.
There are others, but I'll leave it for now.
To answer the question, there are quite a few differences between abortion and capital punishment, but the most important distinction for the argument I think this brings up is that an aborted fetus has not yet developed self-awareness (or should not have, I don't want to get into things like late-term abortions in this response).
Capital punishment is just that, punishment. I doubt many abortions are the result of someone trying to punish the fetus.
There are others, but I'll leave it for now.
There is a great difference. A baby does not make bad choices,..matter of fact, the baby doesn't even get a chance of making a choice because of the mother's pro-choice. I am not blasting "pro-choice" here, just telling it like it is.
I have no problem with taking out a person who has done the same.
Abortion? It is better to have it legal for safety concerns.
Abortion? It is better to have it legal for safety concerns.
| QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 1 2008, 07:32 AM) |
| I'm against both. In terms of abortion, I find it disgusting. I would never advise any woman to have one. However, I don't feel I have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body... Only the individual woman can know how the child was conceived... Perhaps she was raped, perhaps it was incest, etc... My point is, only the woman can know these things, so it should be her choice. I don't want the government in a woman's uterus. Capital punishment is also disgusting. We put innocent people to death EVERY YEAR in this country. One innocent person put to death is too many... We still have a racist criminal just system that punishes black man with harsher penalties for equal crimes. We have prosecuters are pressured to get convctions, instead of making sure they get the right person. I suggest that everyone rent a movie called The Trials of Daryl Hunt. It is about a black man who spent over 20 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Had he been sentenced to death, he would have been murdered for no reason... As long as this stuff continues to happen, I can not support the death penalty... Likewise, study after study have shown that the death penalty is not a deterent to crime. People who are going to rape and murder are going to do it no matter what the consequence... |
Just a little note. Nobody has been innocent who has been killed by cap punishment. Not once.
That's a pretty bold statement, Mad. Are you basing it on anything in particular?
Here's a case that at least calls that into question :
http://chatterbyrondavis.blogspot.com/2005...h-in-texas.html
Or how about this, an article concerning the 100th death-row inmate exonerated before execution :
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0412/p01s02-usju.html
I would say the odds are very good someone innocent as been executed at some point, especially the further in the past you go, as our investigative technology has advanced so much, most pointedly DNA evidence.
I'm not actually against the death penalty, but the idea that no one innocent has ever been executed requires a little bit of proof, I think
It's definitely possible.
Here's a case that at least calls that into question :
http://chatterbyrondavis.blogspot.com/2005...h-in-texas.html
Or how about this, an article concerning the 100th death-row inmate exonerated before execution :
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0412/p01s02-usju.html
I would say the odds are very good someone innocent as been executed at some point, especially the further in the past you go, as our investigative technology has advanced so much, most pointedly DNA evidence.
I'm not actually against the death penalty, but the idea that no one innocent has ever been executed requires a little bit of proof, I think
It's definitely possible.
I support the death penalty in certain cases where guilt is determined by inconrtovertable evidence. I do not support abortion except in cases where the mother's health is in jeopardy or the baby is determined by tests to be inviable. The difference is that the convicted criminal has been given due process and the baby has not.
| QUOTE |
| Just a little note. Nobody has been innocent who has been killed by cap punishment. Not once. |
You are either lying, or just ignorant, because it happens all of the time.
Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989
A Chicago Tribune investigation released in 2006 revealed groundbreaking evidence that Texas may have executed an innocent man in 1989. The defendant, Carlos DeLuna, was executed for the fatal stabbing of Texas convenience store clerk Wanda Lopez in 1983. New evidence uncovered by reporters Maurice Possley and Steve Mills casts doubt on DeLuna’s guilt and points towards another man, Carlos Hernandez, who had a record of similar crimes and repeatedly confessed to the murder. A news piece aired on ABC’s "World News Tonight” also covered this story.
The new evidence casted strong doubt on DeLuna’s guilt. This is the fourth investigation in the past two years pointing to the execution of a probably innocent man. Similar questions have been raised in the cases of Cameron Todd Willingham and Ruben Cantu in Texas, and Larry Griffin in Missouri.
See the Chicago Tribune's Investigation, "Did This Man Die...for This Man's Crime?"
Watch ABC's "World News Tonight" (June 24, 2006)
Watch "Did Texas Execute Innocent Men?" - Dan Rather Reports reveals new details surrounding two capital murder cases in Texas - leading to the executions of Ruben Cantu and Carlos De Luna that may have occurred as the result of flawed evidence (September 2007).
Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
A two-part investigative series by the Houston Chronicle casts serious doubt on the guilt of a Texas man who was executed in 1993. Ruben Cantu had persistently proclaimed his innocence and was only 17 when he was charged with capital murder for the shooting death of a San Antonio man during an attempted robbery. Now, the prosecutor and the jury forewoman have expressed doubts about the case. Moreover, both a key eyewitness in the state's case against Cantu and Cantu's co-defendant have come forward to say that Texas executed an innocent man.
Juan Moreno, who was wounded during the attempted robbery and was a key eyewitness in the case against Cantu, now says that it was not Cantu who shot him and that he only identified Cantu as the shooter because he felt pressured and was afraid of the authorities. Moreno said that he twice told police that Cantu was not his assailant, but that the authorities continued to pressure him to identify Cantu as the shooter after Cantu was involved in an unrelated wounding of a police officer. "The police were sure it was (Cantu) because he had hurt a police officer. They told me they were certain it was him, and that's why I testified. . . . That was bad to blame someone that was not there," Moreno told the Chronicle.
In addition, David Garza, Cantu's co-defendant during his 1985 trial, recently signed a sworn affidavit saying that he allowed Cantu to be accused and executed even though he wasn't with him on the night of the killing. Garza stated, "Part of me died when he died. You've got a 17-year-old who went to his grave for something he did not do. Texas murdered an innocent person."
Sam D. Millsap, Jr., the Bexar County District Attorney who charged Cantu with capital murder, said he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three seperate times.
Miriam Ward, forewoman of the jury that convicted Cantu, said the jury's decision was the best they could do based on the information presented during the trial. She noted, "With a little extra work, a little extra effort, maybe we'd have gotten the right information. The bottom line is, an innocent person was put to death for it. We all have our finger in that." (Houston Chronicle, November 20 & 21, 2005 and Associated Press, November 21, 2005).
Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995
A year-long investigation by the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund has uncovered evidence that Larry Griffin may have been innocent of the crime for which he was executed by the state of Missouri on June 21, 1995. Griffin maintained his innocence until his death, and investigators say his case is the strongest demonstration yet of an execution of an innocent man. The report notes that a man injured in the same drive-by shooting that claimed the life of Quintin Moss says Griffin was not involved in the crime, and the first police officer on the scene has given a new account that undermines the trial testimony of the only witness who identified Griffin as the murderer. Based on its findings, the NAACP has supplied the prosecution with the names of three men it suspects committed the crime, and all three of the suspects are currently in jail for other murders. Prosecutor Jennifer Joyce said she has reopened the investigation and will conduct a comprehensive review of the case over the next few months. "There is no real doubt that we have an innocent person. If we could go to trial on this case, if there was a forum where we could take this to trial, we would win hands down," stated University of Michigan law professor Samuel Gross, who supervised the investigation into Griffin's case. (St. Louis Post-Dispatch, July 11, 2005).
Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997
New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=2238
http://www.amnestyusa.org/Fact_Sheets/The_...1=3&n2=28&n3=99
The list goes on and on and on and on and on...
Innocent people are put to death every year in the United States.
CKFresh did some great research and I trust it is true. On the other hand I feel to execute is ok with valid proof of the crime.
True, thats great research there fresh, but none are facts that the executions were wrong either. Your articles suggest that they could be mistakes. Terms like "The new evidence casted strong doubt", "may have occurred as the result of flawed evidence", and "considerable doubt" means little really.
| QUOTE (Mad_Italian @ Feb 4 2008, 12:32 PM) |
| True, thats great research there fresh, but none are facts that the executions were wrong either. Your articles suggest that they could be mistakes. Terms like "The new evidence casted strong doubt", "may have occurred as the result of flawed evidence", and "considerable doubt" means little really. |
Really?
DNA evidence that excludes the executed prisoner doesn't exonerate them?
You are extremely sheltered if you truly believe we have never executed an innocent person. You must think the criminal justice system is perfect. Is that the case? Do you think the criminal justice system is immune to mistakes?
QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 4 2008, 12:46 PM)
| QUOTE (Mad_Italian @ Feb 4 2008, 12:32 PM) |
| True, thats great research there fresh, but none are facts that the executions were wrong either. Your articles suggest that they could be mistakes. Terms like "The new evidence casted strong doubt", "may have occurred as the result of flawed evidence", and "considerable doubt" means little really. |
Really?
DNA evidence that excludes the executed prisoner doesn't exonerate them?
You are extremely sheltered if you truly believe we have never executed an innocent person. You must think the criminal justice system is perfect. Is that the case? Do you think the criminal justice system is immune to mistakes?
I am for the death penalty and my mind can't be changed at this point in time. That may change but I doubt it.
Having said that... to back up Ck a little... Mad, you have to have a unanimous jury beyond reasonable doubt in order for a person to be guilty.
"flawed evidence" "consdierable doubt" and "strong doubt"
These things (as you pointed out) were not an option for the convicting jury.
If they had not been presented with "flawed evidence" they may not have been found guilty in the first place.
Again, I am for the DP.
At the same time, I believe we better make sure the evil that we are ridding from our civilized society is truly evil and deserves to be put to death.
That is our duty.
As for abortion, in a lot of cases, they are murdering out of convenience to their life style.
Rape, incest, and life threatening illnesses are a different story and should be legal.
To add to this; to execute someone is not the same as a child abortion. Do we all agree?
Sorry "MAD" but I have to post this story if you don't mind?
Artist kills herself after aborting her twins
A British artist, expressing remorse and regret, hanged herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, London's Sunday Telegraph reported.
"I should never have had an abortion," Emma Beck wrote in a note she left. "I see now I would have been a good mum."
The note continued: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is to late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no one else does."
Beck, 30, was found in her home on Feb. 1 and pronounced dead the following day, her 31st birthday.
She terminated the pregnancy after breaking up with her ex-boyfriend, who "reacted badly" to her pregnancy, the Telegraph reported.
From Detmurds: Not saying it happens in every case, but when there is no marriage, bad thing do tend to happen. God Bless her!
Artist kills herself after aborting her twins
A British artist, expressing remorse and regret, hanged herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, London's Sunday Telegraph reported.
"I should never have had an abortion," Emma Beck wrote in a note she left. "I see now I would have been a good mum."
The note continued: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is to late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no one else does."
Beck, 30, was found in her home on Feb. 1 and pronounced dead the following day, her 31st birthday.
She terminated the pregnancy after breaking up with her ex-boyfriend, who "reacted badly" to her pregnancy, the Telegraph reported.
From Detmurds: Not saying it happens in every case, but when there is no marriage, bad thing do tend to happen. God Bless her!
Not sure this is an example of problems based on lack of marriage, Det. I seem to remember plenty of stories in the past of married women doing horrible things to their children, clearly it didn't do anything good in those cases. I'd say this is a case of a woman either with mental problems, or just not happy with her life, and the abortion was an excuse, or maybe the proverbial straw that pushed her over the edge. If everything in the situation remained the same, except she and her boyfriend had been married, I don't see how that would have been likely to alter the outcome.
And because I can't help but point it out, I thought suicide was sort of the unforgivable sin? Unforgivable because you're dead and don't have time in life to regret or repent. Wouldn't that mean god isn't going to bless her but rather darn her? I may be completely wrong, or it may not be a part of your beliefs, just something I know I've heard in relation to Christianity in the past.
And because I can't help but point it out, I thought suicide was sort of the unforgivable sin? Unforgivable because you're dead and don't have time in life to regret or repent. Wouldn't that mean god isn't going to bless her but rather darn her? I may be completely wrong, or it may not be a part of your beliefs, just something I know I've heard in relation to Christianity in the past.
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Feb 24 2008, 10:30 PM) |
| Not sure this is an example of problems based on lack of marriage, Det. I seem to remember plenty of stories in the past of married women doing horrible things to their children, clearly it didn't do anything good in those cases. I'd say this is a case of a woman either with mental problems, or just not happy with her life, and the abortion was an excuse, or maybe the proverbial straw that pushed her over the edge. If everything in the situation remained the same, except she and her boyfriend had been married, I don't see how that would have been likely to alter the outcome. And because I can't help but point it out, I thought suicide was sort of the unforgivable sin? Unforgivable because you're dead and don't have time in life to regret or repent. Wouldn't that mean god isn't going to bless her but rather darn her? I may be completely wrong, or it may not be a part of your beliefs, just something I know I've heard in relation to Christianity in the past. |
I see what Murds is saying though. If she was married she would have had the spousal support that she would have needed? I am not saying that I am the authority on this but it is just what I think. Having twins and aborting them? Very tough decision to live with I'd say.
------------------------------------------------------------
These babies had no choice though and a mass murderer does = simple math.
Question for the pro-lifers out there:
Is Bill Clinton your favorite president?
He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton.
Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan...
Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions.
The facts hurt huh?
Is Bill Clinton your favorite president?
He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton.
Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan...
Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions.
The facts hurt huh?
| QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 26 2008, 07:35 AM) |
| Question for the pro-lifers out there: Is Bill Clinton your favorite president? He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton. Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan... Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions. The facts hurt huh? |
So how does a President have any effect on the number of abortions without changing the law pertaining to it?
| QUOTE (Mad_Italian @ Feb 24 2008, 08:24 PM) |
| To add to this; to execute someone is not the same as a child abortion. Do we all agree? |
To answer your question, it's not. One deserves to die and the other deserves to live.
QUOTE (Detmurds @ Feb 26 2008, 08:11 AM)
| QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 26 2008, 07:35 AM) |
| Question for the pro-lifers out there: Is Bill Clinton your favorite president? He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton. Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan... Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions. The facts hurt huh? |
So how does a President have any effect on the number of abortions without changing the law pertaining to it?
A few things DET.
Teenage pregnancy -
Under Bill Clinton, teenage pregnacy was reduced significantly. This was accomplished by increasing the number of sex ed programs in the country and providing students with the tools to make responsible decisions. You see, pro-lifers are the same people who are against sex-ed... Sex education reduced the number of teen pregnacies, and in turn, prevents abortions.
Aboriton education -
Under Bill Clinton, programs were developed to teach young woman about abortion, if they were considering the procedure. This information helped millions of women delay their abortion and in many cases, helped them decide to keep the child.
CKF,
Not to always be rebellious against everything you say,...but I have to say that every thing that I have researched shows abortions are lower today than during the Clinton administration. My opinion is a president had little to do with it. I don't really think it was due to who was president that made abortion numbers go down but the fear of AIDS, Herpes, and Hepatitis made many perform safe sex vice the unsafe ways of the eighties and before. Therefore, we had less pregnancies, and that just means less abortions. Here is a link to a site that breaks it down, as well other stats that I found interesting.
USA ABORTIONS BY THE YEAR
Also, I wouldn't say that "Pro-Lifers' are against sex education, but only against the government teaching sex education.
In the above site you will see that all states with high undocumented citizens have the highest number of abortions.
An unborn child had no choices in life to make, an inmate awaiting the day of death however had every chance, and choice. ...They failed.
Not to always be rebellious against everything you say,...but I have to say that every thing that I have researched shows abortions are lower today than during the Clinton administration. My opinion is a president had little to do with it. I don't really think it was due to who was president that made abortion numbers go down but the fear of AIDS, Herpes, and Hepatitis made many perform safe sex vice the unsafe ways of the eighties and before. Therefore, we had less pregnancies, and that just means less abortions. Here is a link to a site that breaks it down, as well other stats that I found interesting.
USA ABORTIONS BY THE YEAR
Also, I wouldn't say that "Pro-Lifers' are against sex education, but only against the government teaching sex education.
In the above site you will see that all states with high undocumented citizens have the highest number of abortions.
An unborn child had no choices in life to make, an inmate awaiting the day of death however had every chance, and choice. ...They failed.
But this education should be given by an expert, not neighbor kids down the street, or by crash course. I disagree with you there Dmurds.
| QUOTE (Detmurds @ Feb 27 2008, 02:35 PM) |
| CKF, Not to always be rebellious against everything you say,...but I have to say that every thing that I have researched shows abortions are lower today than during the Clinton administration. My opinion is a president had little to do with it. I don't really think it was due to who was president that made abortion numbers go down but the fear of AIDS, Herpes, and Hepatitis made many perform safe sex vice the unsafe ways of the eighties and before. Therefore, we had less pregnancies, and that just means less abortions. Here is a link to a site that breaks it down, as well other stats that I found interesting. USA ABORTIONS BY THE YEAR Also, I wouldn't say that "Pro-Lifers' are against sex education, but only against the government teaching sex education. In the above site you will see that all states with high undocumented citizens have the highest number of abortions. An unborn child had no choices in life to make, an inmate awaiting the day of death however had every chance, and choice. ...They failed. |
I feel that Murds put this pretty well. That is hitting the nail on the head!
Why is it that the right wants "life" with exceptions?
| QUOTE (Lefty2008 @ Mar 7 2008, 07:17 AM) |
| Why is it that the right wants "life" with exceptions? |
Aren't there exceptions to everything... I guess unless your liberal than anything the right says is bad?
QUOTE (B-man @ Mar 7 2008, 12:52 PM)
| QUOTE (Lefty2008 @ Mar 7 2008, 07:17 AM) |
| Why is it that the right wants "life" with exceptions? |
Aren't there exceptions to everything... I guess unless your liberal than anything the right says is bad?
Speaking of liberals where is ckfresh at? What happened to his picture thingy?
Just to add my two cents here I think that it should be an eye for an eye in dealing with very bad people. I also don't like abortion but it really should stay legal since many will most likely want to self administer it themselves, or commit suicide?
You may be surprised at how many women contemplate suicide after the abortion... I use to believe a woman had a right to that decision ... But science has cought up to our lack of understanding on the subject... And there is no doubt that it is a child and a human life... They are now taking the child out of the womb as early as 3 mos. and operating on the baby then placing it back in the womb for the rest of the term...
End of story... Its a human life ...
End of story... Its a human life ...
I may be wrong, but I don't think that mothers who had abortions are the ones who have the highest rate of suicide?
I wasnt saying that.... But I am friends with 2 women that said they contemplated it... And both still suffer from serious bouts of depression caused by the abortion...
Like I said science cought up to us... It always does... And now it is our responsability to admit we were wrong... there are other options besides killing the child
Like I said science cought up to us... It always does... And now it is our responsability to admit we were wrong... there are other options besides killing the child
| QUOTE (Alucard @ Jun 12 2008, 06:40 PM) |
| I wasnt saying that.... But I am friends with 2 women that said they contemplated it... And both still suffer from serious bouts of depression caused by the abortion... Like I said science cought up to us... It always does... And now it is our responsability to admit we were wrong... there are other options besides killing the child |
Now let me see
...they are your friends and they thought about suicide? Imagine that? I can't say that any of my friends have considered that.
Great chatting with you AL, gotta go.
My friend JoAnne has serious issues... And her husband claims that is why... I never dicussed it with her specifically...
Darlene a friend since high school has stuggled for years with depression... we use to be very close she confided directly to me...
Maybe your friends havent shared that information with you... I mean its not something you advertise...
read these studies when you get a chance...
http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/108/pen...ostAbortion.asp
http://www.afterabortion.org/news/depressionbmj.html
I think this is a great eductional and eye opening topic...
Its big buisiness... alot of people (bad people) stand to lose alot of money if abortion were illegal...
Its all about the money$$$$$$$ we are killing babies so some dirt bags can line their wallets...
These subjects (Abortion and depession/suicide) or (big $ made off murder) are both probably thread worthy ...
Darlene a friend since high school has stuggled for years with depression... we use to be very close she confided directly to me...
Maybe your friends havent shared that information with you... I mean its not something you advertise...
read these studies when you get a chance...
http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/108/pen...ostAbortion.asp
http://www.afterabortion.org/news/depressionbmj.html
I think this is a great eductional and eye opening topic...
Its big buisiness... alot of people (bad people) stand to lose alot of money if abortion were illegal...
Its all about the money$$$$$$$ we are killing babies so some dirt bags can line their wallets...
These subjects (Abortion and depession/suicide) or (big $ made off murder) are both probably thread worthy ...
As I have said throughout this entire thread, I am for the death penalty, and I am against abortion.
Is it a woman's right to kill a baby just because it is still in her? If someone went and killed a pregnant woman, they can be charged for a double murder at the same time! Which one does society want to go with? It needs to be consistent!
Is it a woman's right to kill a baby just because it is still in her? If someone went and killed a pregnant woman, they can be charged for a double murder at the same time! Which one does society want to go with? It needs to be consistent!
While I am fine with abortion, I agree that that seems a horrible double standard Det.
That is crazy isn't it?
What if an abortionist was to drive drunk and kill a pregnant mother who didn't even know she was pregnant until the autopsy was completed? He would probably walk??????
What if an abortionist was to drive drunk and kill a pregnant mother who didn't even know she was pregnant until the autopsy was completed? He would probably walk??????
| QUOTE (MAKEMDEAD @ Jun 14 2008, 09:35 AM) |
| That is crazy isn't it? What if an abortionist was to drive drunk and kill a pregnant mother who didn't even know she was pregnant until the autopsy was completed? He would probably walk?????? |
Just doin his job!
It just doesn't make sense does it? Kill one on death-row for the horrors they have committed and the liberals will cry like little babies, unless it is a baby that is being killed by a so called doctor. Doctors administer the death of bad people in prison, and at least they can get in a final word.
Speaking of abortion,....here is one for ya!
I think he just might be a human, not an abortion! This was a legal abortion too,.yes in the United States! It is MURDER.
I think he just might be a human, not an abortion! This was a legal abortion too,.yes in the United States! It is MURDER.
Thats too much for me...
My emotions cant handle the thought of these poor innocent children we (America)kill everyday...
I want to cry... And I want to beat the hell out of somebody at the same time...
We have to do something...
This is why I support (and would be happy to financially back if I knew who to pay) abortion clinic bombings...
If I didnt have two little ones to look after, I would do it myself...
As wrong as that may seem to some of you... Someone has to fight for these poor little babies...
And killing the enablers is a good start....
My emotions cant handle the thought of these poor innocent children we (America)kill everyday...
I want to cry... And I want to beat the hell out of somebody at the same time...
We have to do something...
This is why I support (and would be happy to financially back if I knew who to pay) abortion clinic bombings...
If I didnt have two little ones to look after, I would do it myself...
As wrong as that may seem to some of you... Someone has to fight for these poor little babies...
And killing the enablers is a good start....
You are a great man Alucard! 
Do I sense a little sarcasm there?
If not... good
If so... I understand
I'm just being honest...
I will admit, I never felt anything but a sense of satisfaction when hearing of these abortion clinic bombings on the news....
Unfortunaty ther hasnt been any in a long time... Too longl
If not... good
If so... I understand
I'm just being honest...
I will admit, I never felt anything but a sense of satisfaction when hearing of these abortion clinic bombings on the news....
Unfortunaty ther hasnt been any in a long time... Too longl
It sounds as though you consider terrorism a viable political tool Al, at least as long as the goal is one you agree with. Certainly blowing up abortion clinics would seem like an act of terrorism to me.
I understand you apparently consider it worth it to save the children (personally I don't consider it really a human life until the brain starts to function, but I understand we have a difference of opinion and I do actually respect your view), but the means used are important. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't think of it as terrorism, but I think it fits.
I understand you apparently consider it worth it to save the children (personally I don't consider it really a human life until the brain starts to function, but I understand we have a difference of opinion and I do actually respect your view), but the means used are important. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't think of it as terrorism, but I think it fits.
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Jun 15 2008, 03:05 PM) |
| It sounds as though you consider terrorism a viable political tool Al, at least as long as the goal is one you agree with. Certainly blowing up abortion clinics would seem like an act of terrorism to me. I understand you apparently consider it worth it to save the children (personally I don't consider it really a human life until the brain starts to function, but I understand we have a difference of opinion and I do actually respect your view), but the means used are important. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't think of it as terrorism, but I think it fits. |
I don't know Mont,...what about severe mental retardation, or someone in a coma? Brain activity is, "not much". Just asking.
If my mother was brain dead at the hospital and it was up to me to "pull the plug" I couldn't do it. I think the big difference is knowing the person.
Is this picture really an abortion? That is the real question?
Is this picture really an abortion? That is the real question?
darn it .. I had a well written, well thought out response and somehow hit a key that deleted it all...
I'll try again..
Wow!!!.... what a topic...
so many views... and all legitamate in their own right...
First of all thank you for not attacking me for my point of view on this subject.
Monty raises a good question..
Is my position actually a form of terrorism?
And I would concede that yes it is a terroristic form of battle...
However I believe terror is a fair weapon...
The British claimed the Colonial Militia were terrorists because they waged a different form of battle than the Europeans...
Terrorism is just a form of battle... I have no problem with it...
We (America)are fighting a war against muslim extremists.... They can not beat us in our type of conventional warfare... So they are fighting us with the best weapon they have... Terror.... more power to them... It is up to us to defend our selves against it...
To think that they should fight the battle on our terms is rediculous...
Anything other though we consider and label as "terror"...propaganda I say...
war is war... you win by any means...
You know the old saying... There are no rules in love and war... Well thats true...
After three Margaritas and a vicadin I'm not sure if that made sense...
If not ...I'll try again tomarrow to get the point accross ...
Happy Fathers Day !
I'll try again..
Wow!!!.... what a topic...
so many views... and all legitamate in their own right...
First of all thank you for not attacking me for my point of view on this subject.
Monty raises a good question..
Is my position actually a form of terrorism?
And I would concede that yes it is a terroristic form of battle...
However I believe terror is a fair weapon...
The British claimed the Colonial Militia were terrorists because they waged a different form of battle than the Europeans...
Terrorism is just a form of battle... I have no problem with it...
We (America)are fighting a war against muslim extremists.... They can not beat us in our type of conventional warfare... So they are fighting us with the best weapon they have... Terror.... more power to them... It is up to us to defend our selves against it...
To think that they should fight the battle on our terms is rediculous...
Anything other though we consider and label as "terror"...propaganda I say...
war is war... you win by any means...
You know the old saying... There are no rules in love and war... Well thats true...
After three Margaritas and a vicadin I'm not sure if that made sense...
If not ...I'll try again tomarrow to get the point accross ...
Happy Fathers Day !
Al, hope you had a great fathers day as well!
I appreciate your enthusiasm.
The problem I have with abortion is this: People must live by the decisions they make in life. If you rob a bank and get caught, you go to jail,...have unprotected sex, you may get pregnant (or the girl you are with might), .....worse case one might catch something? I would bet that most unwanted pregnancies are due to unmarried sex!
To be honest, I don't think I have ever heard of a woman who was married that had this procedure done?
I appreciate your enthusiasm.
The problem I have with abortion is this: People must live by the decisions they make in life. If you rob a bank and get caught, you go to jail,...have unprotected sex, you may get pregnant (or the girl you are with might), .....worse case one might catch something? I would bet that most unwanted pregnancies are due to unmarried sex!
To be honest, I don't think I have ever heard of a woman who was married that had this procedure done?
| QUOTE (Detmurds @ Jun 16 2008, 03:43 AM) |
| Al, hope you had a great fathers day as well! I appreciate your enthusiasm. The problem I have with abortion is this: People must live by the decisions they make in life. If you rob a bank and get caught, you go to jail,...have unprotected sex, you may get pregnant (or the girl you are with might), .....worse case one might catch something? I would bet that most unwanted pregnancies are due to unmarried sex! To be honest, I don't think I have ever heard of a woman who was married that had this procedure done? |
Not DUE TO UNMARRIED SEX, but those not married.
[COLOR=yellow]
Abortion is not an easy topic. I believe women should hold them selfs accountable for having unprotected sex. Dont do the crime, if you cant do the time.
However, there are situations that I believe are out of a womens control such as rape and incest. I dont believe a child should be brought into this world with a negative ora surrounding them. Children are so precisious and deserve love. I dont that a women that has gone through a horrifying experience could honestly provide that child with that they deserve. I dont think the women should have to have a baby inside her that her father provided her with.......so i guess i am against abortion unless there are justifyabe reason.
Abortion is not an easy topic. I believe women should hold them selfs accountable for having unprotected sex. Dont do the crime, if you cant do the time.
However, there are situations that I believe are out of a womens control such as rape and incest. I dont believe a child should be brought into this world with a negative ora surrounding them. Children are so precisious and deserve love. I dont that a women that has gone through a horrifying experience could honestly provide that child with that they deserve. I dont think the women should have to have a baby inside her that her father provided her with.......so i guess i am against abortion unless there are justifyabe reason.
Can't being a dirtbag, welfare junkie, unable to care for the soon to be 5th child be enough reason to allow abortion?
Truth be told I don't like the willful taking of another life without cause. I don't even like it when someone, for no good reason, goes out of their way to step on an insect and I am being serious about that.
However, I think it not only does society a great injustice, but it's also an injustice to the doomed life you bring into this world. In cases like this, I think it is better for the child to be killed than to have it grow up in poverty and inevitably in prison.
Even in nature parents kill their young that can not be cared for or where they can not care for themselves.
Having said all that, I think it is an important issue to be talking about. We need to stop pregnancy! We wouldn't have to worry about abortion if we focused our efforts on education.
The morning after pill should be readily available. Classes on safe sex and abstinence should be taught on a weekly basis. Parents should be required to under go parenting classes before the birth of their children. We have learned that ignoring these issues leads to abortion and pregnancy.
Lastly, dam the Pope to hell for going to Africa and teaching that any form of birth control is a sin!! Dam him!
Truth be told I don't like the willful taking of another life without cause. I don't even like it when someone, for no good reason, goes out of their way to step on an insect and I am being serious about that.
However, I think it not only does society a great injustice, but it's also an injustice to the doomed life you bring into this world. In cases like this, I think it is better for the child to be killed than to have it grow up in poverty and inevitably in prison.
Even in nature parents kill their young that can not be cared for or where they can not care for themselves.
Having said all that, I think it is an important issue to be talking about. We need to stop pregnancy! We wouldn't have to worry about abortion if we focused our efforts on education.
The morning after pill should be readily available. Classes on safe sex and abstinence should be taught on a weekly basis. Parents should be required to under go parenting classes before the birth of their children. We have learned that ignoring these issues leads to abortion and pregnancy.
Lastly, dam the Pope to hell for going to Africa and teaching that any form of birth control is a sin!! Dam him!
| QUOTE (B-man @ Jun 16 2008, 09:38 PM) |
| Can't being a dirtbag, welfare junkie, unable to care for the soon to be 5th child be enough reason to allow abortion? Truth be told I don't like the willful taking of another life without cause. I don't even like it when someone, for no good reason, goes out of their way to step on an insect and I am being serious about that. However, I think it not only does society a great injustice, but it's also an injustice to the doomed life you bring into this world. In cases like this, I think it is better for the child to be killed than to have it grow up in poverty and inevitably in prison. Even in nature parents kill their young that can not be cared for or where they can not care for themselves. Having said all that, I think it is an important issue to be talking about. We need to stop pregnancy! We wouldn't have to worry about abortion if we focused our efforts on education. The morning after pill should be readily available. Classes on safe sex and abstinence should be taught on a weekly basis. Parents should be required to under go parenting classes before the birth of their children. We have learned that ignoring these issues leads to abortion and pregnancy. Lastly, dam the Pope to hell for going to Africa and teaching that any form of birth control is a sin!! Dam him! |
I like your post B-Man except this line your typed in: "I think it is better for the child to be killed"
Is it a child? I say nope!
Another thing, if we oppose abortion due to our religious beliefs then we are making every American subject to religion. Our Constitution says....Congress shall make no respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof. I think that says it all.
I think that is an interesting point Lefty. I do however think that the line gets blurred between morality and religion. We have to be careful about that. I think we as a society have to set some standards on morality which to some could be viewed as religion being forced on us. I think that religion teaches morality, so people think that only religion pushes these issues but we as humans should know right from wrong and teach that from our basic humanity.
Here is a question I always ask even though I don't have a strong opinion on the matter to tell the truth, ok, "what is the difference between a doctor who performs abortions and a nazi who killed Jews?" Never have heard a smart answer yet.
| QUOTE (RAGIN CAJUN @ Jun 18 2008, 06:37 PM) |
| Here is a question I always ask even though I don't have a strong opinion on the matter to tell the truth, ok, "what is the difference between a doctor who performs abortions and a nazi who killed Jews?" Never have heard a smart answer yet. |
which one kills out of malice? Is hindering the construction of a fetus the same as murdering a breathing human? If that is the case, how is it different killing a pesky fly from killing a human being?
I guess the debate is if it is a human or not then B-man?
| QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 26 2008, 11:35 AM) |
| Question for the pro-lifers out there: Is Bill Clinton your favorite president? He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton. Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan... Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions. The facts hurt huh? |
How about a link to support this...
I find it hard to believe....
| QUOTE (Lefty2008 @ Jun 17 2008, 07:33 AM) |
| Another thing, if we oppose abortion due to our religious beliefs then we are making every American subject to religion. Our Constitution says....Congress shall make no respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof. I think that says it all. |
What an incredibly gross mis-interpretation of the constitution...
That has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are trying to make Lefty... but nice try!
I will break it down real quick for everyone...
"Congress shall make no respecting an establishment of religion" This means congress can not "create" a religion ....
"or prohibit the free exercise thereof." This means congress cannot stop you from practicing your religion...
Unbelievable.... how you could mis interpet that poorly is mind boggling, and quite frankly I will take all your posts with a grain of salt from this day forward as a result... Im sorry for the harshness but my goodness... Take a reading comprehension course or maybe TWO!
However in your defense, this is typical of the LEFTS constant misinterpretation of the "Seperation of Church and State"
By no means does that mean that religious beliefs can not, or should not, influence our laws of this country. As a matter of fact it means the complete opposite our contitution was written with Christian influence... Clearly it influenced the writers of the constitution greatly and should still influence our lawmakers today, just as forefathers intended...
The seperation of church and state... Means 1 thing and 1 thing only...
And that is ...the government can not create a religion and force the citizens to fallow it... As King Goerge did in England... NOTHING MORE...
That is why they left Englad in the first place... Religious persecution...
The Left is constantly trying to twist this crystal clear part of the constitution...
Or is it just pure ignorance?
Probably a little bit of both!
QUOTE (Alucard @ Jun 20 2008, 06:52 PM)
| QUOTE (CKFresh @ Feb 26 2008, 11:35 AM) |
| Question for the pro-lifers out there: Is Bill Clinton your favorite president? He should be. No elected official in the history of this country has done more to reduce the number of abortions than Bill Clinton. Under Clinton, the abortion rate dropped by more than 20%. That rate has increased under Bush. It increased under Reagan... Clinton reduced abortions. Republican policies do nothing to reduce abortions. The facts hurt huh? |
How about a link to support this...
I find it hard to believe....
I have one word that can describe CKFRESH .... So you ALL know...
LIAR!!!! LIAR!!!! LIAR!!!
Here are the facts...
Abortions have dropped dramatically during the Bush Admin....
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm
| QUOTE (Detmurds @ Jun 19 2008, 12:05 AM) |
| I guess the debate is if it is a human or not then B-man? |
It is BIOLOGICAL FACT that LIFE begins at conception...
It is SCIENTIFIC FACT that the LIFE is never anything other than HUMAN...
What other evidence is needed on the subject...
I guess due to some of the lefts opinions we should ignore these facts...
By the lefts standards this scenerio holds true...
Would killing LEFTY or CKFresh the liar or any other liberal be murder?
I say NOT...
By their actions.... In my opinion they are not humane...
Therefore why consider them human... Thus the murder of liberals in my opinion is not the taking of a human life... but an inhumane life instead...
There you have it...
By there own rules and standards... to kill liberals that support abortion is not Murder...
Isn't a sperm alive? An egg?
If someone handed you a newly fertilized egg, without telling you what it was, what do you think the odds are that you would consider it to be a human being?
On another tack, if someone is brain dead but their body is still alive, how do you feel about them? Is 'pulling the plug' ok in that kind of situation?
You ask what other evidence is needed, but you haven't actually provided any. You've made some statements, but haven't given any information to back those statements up. I could simply say 'It is a biological fact that life does not begin at conception' and 'it is a scientific fact that the life is not human until birth' and now no other evidence is needed; clearly that is untrue as I haven't proven a thing with those simple statements. If they are true, fine, but I need to give some evidence that they are.
And what about non-liberals that support abortion? Is it only the libs that you think it's ok to kill, but if a republican or someone not affiliated with the two major parties supports abortion, it's different?
For all your talk of facts, most of this and other posts I've read from you is actually little more than opinion, and opinion biased by your seeming belief that the country is divided into liberals and conservatives and there can be no one else. That certainly doesn't lend weight to your arguments, in MY opinion
If someone handed you a newly fertilized egg, without telling you what it was, what do you think the odds are that you would consider it to be a human being?
On another tack, if someone is brain dead but their body is still alive, how do you feel about them? Is 'pulling the plug' ok in that kind of situation?
You ask what other evidence is needed, but you haven't actually provided any. You've made some statements, but haven't given any information to back those statements up. I could simply say 'It is a biological fact that life does not begin at conception' and 'it is a scientific fact that the life is not human until birth' and now no other evidence is needed; clearly that is untrue as I haven't proven a thing with those simple statements. If they are true, fine, but I need to give some evidence that they are.
And what about non-liberals that support abortion? Is it only the libs that you think it's ok to kill, but if a republican or someone not affiliated with the two major parties supports abortion, it's different?
For all your talk of facts, most of this and other posts I've read from you is actually little more than opinion, and opinion biased by your seeming belief that the country is divided into liberals and conservatives and there can be no one else. That certainly doesn't lend weight to your arguments, in MY opinion
Simple reply from me,..if it has a heartbeat, I consider it a life. Sperm has no heart it is just a seed.
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Jun 21 2008, 11:51 AM) |
| Isn't a sperm alive? An egg? If someone handed you a newly fertilized egg, without telling you what it was, what do you think the odds are that you would consider it to be a human being? On another tack, if someone is brain dead but their body is still alive, how do you feel about them? Is 'pulling the plug' ok in that kind of situation? You ask what other evidence is needed, but you haven't actually provided any. You've made some statements, but haven't given any information to back those statements up. I could simply say 'It is a biological fact that life does not begin at conception' and 'it is a scientific fact that the life is not human until birth' and now no other evidence is needed; clearly that is untrue as I haven't proven a thing with those simple statements. If they are true, fine, but I need to give some evidence that they are. And what about non-liberals that support abortion? Is it only the libs that you think it's ok to kill, but if a republican or someone not affiliated with the two major parties supports abortion, it's different? For all your talk of facts, most of this and other posts I've read from you is actually little more than opinion, and opinion biased by your seeming belief that the country is divided into liberals and conservatives and there can be no one else. That certainly doesn't lend weight to your arguments, in MY opinion |
I do not provde links with all my posts... although I do on most of the time ..
so for you to say most of my posts are opinion is not true...
as a matter of fact I seem to be one of the ONLY posters on this site that actually provides links to guide the readers with more information
So you accusation is just plain false
And if you think I am pushing opinion as fact You should provide a link of proof to show me the liar as I did with that nitwit CKfresh...
instead you have called me a liar yet showed no proof
I will be happy to provide links supporting my claims you refuted shortly, but for now I have 2 Parties to attend and no time to do so...
Have a good weekend!
You have misinterpreted my post. I was not 'refuting' what you said, but rather commenting on the manner in which you presented your thoughts. Neither did I say you were lying. I merely used the same type of wording and lack of evidence from the opposite side of the argument to highlight how the lack of evidence gives things less weight; and I asked a few questions which seemed as though they give ample opportunity for you to provide such evidence. In fact, I don't believe i I ever even said you were wrong or that I disagree (I do, but I don't think I said so before this). I was trying to give my opinion that your post needed to be backed up with evidence after using two statements that something is fact to base an argument on.
Two other points.
First, isn't biology a science? Why do you state life beginning at conception is a biological fact, while that life being human is a scientific fact?
Second, if you follow the logic that because liberals believe it is ok to kill babies (abortion), it is ok to kill liberals....you are really giving consent to the killing of the babies. I would like to assume you were simply making a point with your comments about killing liberals, but I am sometimes unsure where your use of metaphor or example leave off and your actual beliefs come in.
Two other points.
First, isn't biology a science? Why do you state life beginning at conception is a biological fact, while that life being human is a scientific fact?
Second, if you follow the logic that because liberals believe it is ok to kill babies (abortion), it is ok to kill liberals....you are really giving consent to the killing of the babies. I would like to assume you were simply making a point with your comments about killing liberals, but I am sometimes unsure where your use of metaphor or example leave off and your actual beliefs come in.
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Jun 21 2008, 11:51 AM) |
| Isn't a sperm alive? An egg? |
I have time for one portion at a time...
A) there is a huge difference between "ALIVE" and "LIFE"...
Yes a sperm cell is Alive... But it is not Life
They are two completely different things...
Life, is manifested by growth....Something that is Alive is not manifested by "GROWTH"
I guess semantics has caused us some issues. I've always thought that the simplest definition of alive would be 'having life'. Clearly you disagree (or at least disagree in this discussion). I think, then, that what I would need to understand you is to know just how you are defining alive and life.
Lets just look at it from this view! Take away the right to LEGAL abortion and you may be playing with back alley abortions which leads to death of confused young women who could have had a life if the procedure was done properly in the first place. We are about being a free country right? Keep the laws as they are. What harm has it done to anyone who is against abortion I ask?
Mind your own business I say!
Mind your own business I say!
| QUOTE (LIBERATOR @ Jun 22 2008, 07:40 PM) |
| Lets just look at it from this view! Take away the right to LEGAL abortion and you may be playing with back alley abortions which leads to death of confused young women who could have had a life if the procedure was done properly in the first place. We are about being a free country right? Keep the laws as they are. What harm has it done to anyone who is against abortion I ask? Mind your own business I say! |
This is a favorite myth put forth by pro-abortionists. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of abortions were done by physicians in their offices, not in back alleys. Further, women still suffer and die from "legal" abortions in America
Women face injuries to the uterus, cervix, urinary tract, infection, hemorrhage, heart failure, embolism, sterilizations, ruptured intestines & bowels, coma, and even death. In addition, there are countless cases of abortionists sexually abusing their clients while under anesthesia.
In fact, you're four times more likely to die in the year following your abortion. Further, woman who have abortions suffer mental health declines, while those who deliver their child actually have improved mental health...
see link for facts
http://www.abortiontv.com/Glitch/AbortionsGoneWrong.htm
It is my Business....
My tax dollars keep Planned Parenthoods doors open... If it was not for federal funding Planned parenthood would be out of business...
QUOTE (Alucard @ Jun 22 2008, 06:23 PM)
| QUOTE (LIBERATOR @ Jun 22 2008, 07:40 PM) |
| Lets just look at it from this view! Take away the right to LEGAL abortion and you may be playing with back alley abortions which leads to death of confused young women who could have had a life if the procedure was done properly in the first place. We are about being a free country right? Keep the laws as they are. What harm has it done to anyone who is against abortion I ask? Mind your own business I say! |
This is a favorite myth put forth by pro-abortionists. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of abortions were done by physicians in their offices, not in back alleys. Further, women still suffer and die from "legal" abortions in America
Women face injuries to the uterus, cervix, urinary tract, infection, hemorrhage, heart failure, embolism, sterilizations, ruptured intestines & bowels, coma, and even death. In addition, there are countless cases of abortionists sexually abusing their clients while under anesthesia.
In fact, you're four times more likely to die in the year following your abortion. Further, woman who have abortions suffer mental health declines, while those who deliver their child actually have improved mental health...
see link for facts
http://www.abortiontv.com/Glitch/AbortionsGoneWrong.htm
It is my Business....
My tax dollars keep Planned Parenthoods doors open... If it was not for federal funding Planned parenthood would be out of business...
I see no lies here, good post! But, Lib does ask a good question that I would love to see answered,...in reference to American freedom, and who's business is it anyhow?
Don't get me wrong,..I am against the procedure as a God loving person!
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Jun 22 2008, 05:49 PM) |
| I guess semantics has caused us some issues. I've always thought that the simplest definition of alive would be 'having life'. Clearly you disagree (or at least disagree in this discussion). I think, then, that what I would need to understand you is to know just how you are defining alive and life. |
Monty I am very active in the pro life movement and quite honestly his argument of whether or not life begins at conception was dropped by the pro murder forces back in the late eighties...
That is when all scientists agreed life starts at conception and that it is nothing other than Human...
This argument is not even brought up by the murderers anymore becuase science simply no longer supports them...
I am not going to beat a dead horse here I have as much proof as can be given.
I summerized long scientific studies and the link fallows where you can read them in their entirety
Metabolic View:
This position is supported by recent research that has revealed that fertilization itself is not even an instantaneous event, but rather a process that takes 20-22 hours between the time the sperm penetrates the outermost layers of the egg and the formation of a diploid cell (Kuhse 1988).
Genetic View:
The genetic view takes the position that the creation of a genetically unique individual is the moment at which life begins. This event is often described as taking place at fertilization, thus fertilization marks the beginning of human life. ertilization is not a moment, but rather a continuous process lasting 12-24 hours, with an additional 24 hours required to complete the formation of a diploid individual.
Embryological View:
In contrast to the genetic view, the embryological view states that human life originates not at fertilization but rather at gastrulation. Human embryos are capable of splitting into identical twins as late as 12 days after fertilization resulting in the development of separate individuals with unique personalities
Neurological view:
Although most cultures identify the qualities of humanity as different from other living organisms, there is also a universal view that all forms of life on earth are finite. Implicit in the later view is the reality that all life has both a beginning and an end, usually identified as some form of death. Champions for a fetus's right to life often claim that the brain of a human fetus begins to show electrical activity at a remarkably early age. A key moment in the history of the abortion debate is the production and release of "The Silent Scream," an influential abortion film that graphically depicts the fetal response to its termination. The video accompanies the abortion of a 12-week-old fetus with the words "Now this little person at twelve weeks is a fully formed absolutely identifiable human being. He has had brain waves for at least six weeks..."
If thats not enough, I dont know what to tell you it it pretty clear ALL science agrees on this ...
This Debate should be over....
Here is the link to these scientific researches (is researches a word?) Oh well it works here...
http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162
Have a good night Monty! read away!
| QUOTE (Detmurds @ Jun 22 2008, 10:32 PM) |
| I see no lies here, good post! But, Lib does ask a good question that I would love to see answered,...in reference to American freedom, and who's business is it anyhow? Don't get me wrong,..I am against the procedure as a God loving person! |
#1 when tax dollars pay for it, its everyones buisuness...
#2 Murder is illegal...
#3 These children cannot not defend themselve so some one has to stand up for them...
Your position "mind your own buisiness "
where do you draw the line ....???
If I beat my children, and lock them in a closet, and sexually abuse them .. Is that my business???... In other words its none of your buisiness, they are my children I'll do what I want to them...
Its not a good point!... Its a stupid one!
In my opinion, until there is some higher brain function (more than simple involuntary bodily function), it is not truly a person. I consider our consciousness the thing that marks us as people. So, for me, there is at least some time during which I would not consider it reasonable to call abortion murder, any more than pulling the plug when someone is brain-dead is murder. Unfortunately, I have no idea how well we can determine just what kind of brain activity is happening in a fetus, so I do not know if there is an accurate way to decide a pregnancy is too far along for abortion.
I could make other arguments for abortion (or against for that matter) but in my experience it doesn't matter. We all have our opinions about it, and I don't know that I've ever seen someone change their thoughts on this subject.
I could make other arguments for abortion (or against for that matter) but in my experience it doesn't matter. We all have our opinions about it, and I don't know that I've ever seen someone change their thoughts on this subject.
I think our current way of doing things is ok since abortions went down anyhow. Women are learning that it isn't a good thing. Which to me is more important than the right to do it itself.
QUOTE (Alucard @ Jun 22 2008, 07:05 PM)
| QUOTE (Detmurds @ Jun 22 2008, 10:32 PM) |
| I see no lies here, good post! But, Lib does ask a good question that I would love to see answered,...in reference to American freedom, and who's business is it anyhow? Don't get me wrong,..I am against the procedure as a God loving person! |
#1 when tax dollars pay for it, its everyones buisuness...
#2 Murder is illegal...
#3 These children cannot not defend themselve so some one has to stand up for them...
Your position "mind your own buisiness "
where do you draw the line ....???
If I beat my children, and lock them in a closet, and sexually abuse them .. Is that my business???... In other words its none of your buisiness, they are my children I'll do what I want to them...
Its not a good point!... Its a stupid one!
Hey Alucard, that is not the best comparison.
QUOTE (GinaGirl81 @ Jun 24 2008, 05:06 AM)
| QUOTE (Alucard @ Jun 22 2008, 07:05 PM) | ||
#1 when tax dollars pay for it, its everyones buisuness... #2 Murder is illegal... #3 These children cannot not defend themselve so some one has to stand up for them... Your position "mind your own buisiness " where do you draw the line ....??? If I beat my children, and lock them in a closet, and sexually abuse them .. Is that my business???... In other words its none of your buisiness, they are my children I'll do what I want to them... Its not a good point!... Its a stupid one! |
Hey Alucard, that is not the best comparison.
Yea... I know... It was late... And I was pretty fried.... I was thinking about deleting it right after I posted it.... I should have waited till morning ....
thanks for the reminder...
I find you very enertaining Al,..you crack me up and you are very sincere.
| QUOTE (LIBERATOR @ Jun 24 2008, 08:52 PM) |
| I find you very enertaining Al,..you crack me up and you are very sincere. |
This is a thought I had today that I am directing at those of you that believe religious beliefs are center most peoples belief in the right to life...
And another example of why I believe abortion is everyones buisiness...
One small Quote that is the staple of American Life and Freedom...
"The right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
And I an determined to see that every child has that right...!!!!
So whith that....
I turn the Question back to you...
Who are YOU to take that right away...
Super duper point AL! I don't think any liberal can answer that question without giving another question like they all do. Let's find out!?????
Nitpicking point : All MEN have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Children are not afforded all the same rights as adults. For that matter, at the time of that quote's writing, women didn't have all the same rights either. Nor, for that matter, did many minorities. I understand your point, just couldn't resist arguing it
I hope I made my feelings on this fairly clear in my earlier post. Until there is some thought involved, I don't consider a fetus or fertilized egg to be truly human. Not, at least, in the important sense. In the same way I have no trouble with a brain-dead adult being allowed to die rather than keeping them on life-support indefinitely, I don't have a problem with abortion until such time as the fetus has developed enough for some higher brain function.
Put simply, until a certain point in development is reached, it is not a child but a potential child.
As far as most people against abortion feeling as they do because of religious belief, that certainly seems possible to me. That in no way means there aren't people opposed to abortion for non-religious reasons, just that there certainly do seem to be a lot of people who claim God as their reason for being against it.
For those of you opposed to abortion, I am curious what your stance is in cases of rape, or if the health of the mother is in danger?
I hope I made my feelings on this fairly clear in my earlier post. Until there is some thought involved, I don't consider a fetus or fertilized egg to be truly human. Not, at least, in the important sense. In the same way I have no trouble with a brain-dead adult being allowed to die rather than keeping them on life-support indefinitely, I don't have a problem with abortion until such time as the fetus has developed enough for some higher brain function.
Put simply, until a certain point in development is reached, it is not a child but a potential child.
As far as most people against abortion feeling as they do because of religious belief, that certainly seems possible to me. That in no way means there aren't people opposed to abortion for non-religious reasons, just that there certainly do seem to be a lot of people who claim God as their reason for being against it.
For those of you opposed to abortion, I am curious what your stance is in cases of rape, or if the health of the mother is in danger?
| QUOTE (Montrovant @ Jun 25 2008, 04:58 PM) |
| For those of you opposed to abortion, I am curious what your stance is in cases of rape, or if the health of the mother is in danger? |
I oppose it and in the event of a rape I still don't think abortion would make her feel much better? I have seen a story of a couple who had this very thing happen (they were white) and the woman was raped by a black man. They had the baby and loved the child 100%. The birth of a child is never an accident or a crime, it is a gift. It would be a challenge given to a mother, or couple for sure.
Life threatening situation? How often does this happen I really wonder? I can't figure out how killing the unborn will save someone else's life to be honest. Anyhow, to answer the question,.....I sure wouldn't want to be in a situation being forced to make that decision. Also, abortions are dangerous, and I am not too sure if they would do an abortion as a traditional abortion is administered?